Childhood Sexual Guilt Forum Libchrist

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From:  justawomern  11/18/2004 12:20 am 
To: ALL  (1 of 43) 
 966.1 

Hello All,

I was reading something online about christianity and human sexuality. Can't even remember where I was reading, but it had a lot of scriptures relating to sexuality, etc.

Anyway, there was a link to this site, so I followed it here. I haven't really read much yet, but was wondering about a lot of things.

Maybe I need to go back and finish reading that other site....that is if I can even find it....because it did have a lot of scripture to back up their beliefs about freedom of expression of our sexuality, etc. I didn't bookmark the site, so if anyone knows what it is, I'd appreciate the link. Part of it was called 'The Cult of Childhood'. Or something like that.

This is all new to me. I mean exploring the 'christian' aspect of it all. It's mind-boggling. Yet curiously freeing.

I was raised by hell-fire and brimstone type people (throngs of family) who thought it was a sin to do almost anything that had any pleasure to it at all. Actual sexual activity was reserved for kids playing in the barn, then preaching to each other about hell. It was one of those childhoods that really screws up the mind.

But then, going to church, it was the same thing. It was so confusing.

My first question is in regards to child molestation. I was molested as a child. By a lot of red-neck 'christians'. Most of whom were my family members.

I really didn't think it was so 'wrong' until later in life when I was in therapy and was pretty much told how 'wrong' it all was.

So, is it 'wrong'?

 
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From:  Clanmom  11/18/2004 3:29 am 
To: justawomern  (2 of 43) 
 966.2 in reply to 966.1 

HI! I had similar experiences!

First - CONGRATULATIONS for seeking TRUTH!

Next, about sex in childhood - that's a harder thing to define as 'wrong.' What makes the difference between 'playing doctor' (and innocent curiosity), and outright child molestation/exploitation?

I have both genders represented in my children, and IN our house, they change clothes in front of each other and sometimes bathe together. From early on, my children knew what the other gender looked like (and even now - when I babysit, my youngest (3) asks "where's her penis?" or says "her penis has broken off" so it gives me an opportunity to explain that girl private parts are different than boy private parts). From what I have seen in my own children, being open and honest and not 'HIDING' private parts or making them sound dirty or secret, my children have shown no signs of 'curiosity' or perversion.

I say this to compare to my childhood (where all the neighborhood children were involved in sex play and outright intercourse at VERY young ages). We were taught our bodies were dirty, never to look at our selves or anyone else, and complete 'shame-based' parenting techniques (bare-bottom spanking in public - yes - well into school ages).

Anyway - because of this training - the children I grew up with were not only curious, but 'conquering' in their exploits. It wasn't a matter of "oh - this is what my private parts look like - what do yours look like?" It was more of the kind of oppressive, conquering "I have control over you, and you can't tell" attitude that is so beautifully described in the book "God is not a Homophobe" as to what GOD HATES (not any single type of sex activity, but the attitude of conquering and holding it over others that God hates). In other words, I don't think it matters what the sex activity is, if it is DONE - and RECEIVED as loving and kind, then God is not against it.

Having said that - I don't believe that intercourse with children is EVER healthy or received in love, for they don't have the mental or emotional maturity to understand. Because of this- anything 'sexual' involving children is way too 'iffy.' Yet I am aware that there are many in churches who would say that my children have sinned by seeing themselves and the opposite gender naked (and would say I have sinned for allowing them to).

Back to your personal childhood. Were these relatives "over" you? Did they tell you "you can't ever tell anyone -- or else" (or any similar threats)? Was it mutual exploration by all?

Only YOU can know how YOU received it (you can have thoughts as to *their* motives - but only you can know how *you* received it at the time).

NOW to the present. I have been through 30 years of counseling (off and on), mostly with Christian counselors. A few weeks ago I went to a Klemmer & Associates conference (www.klemmer.com), and ALL of this finally made sense (and I realized that some of the counselors screwed me up WORSE rather than helped me).

Basically, what happens in our lives is that something happens. . . it just "is." Then we attach (or in the case of parents or counselors, they attach) meaning to this event - the even now is assigned a significance. FROM THAT MEANING, we then decide something about OURSELVES - we assume a VALUE about ourselves - not based on the EVENT - but based on the MEANING placed on that event.

Now we can CHOOSE - as adults - to re-evaluate that event - to look at that event fresh, new, from "the outside" and re-evaluate the VALUE of ourselves from a NEW meaning attached to that event. Changing the meaning gives empowerment.

About your situation? Only you know. Look at the event, both from your memories, and as an adult watching it play out as a movie in your mind - as an outsider. Were you abused? What if you were? What meaning will you attach to that event? What value will you place on yourself?

Here's another idea along the same lines (also from the Klemmer conference). Write two scenarios of this - one from a TOTAL victim standpoing - they TOTALLY did this to you - you had no control and there was no way out. Next write about the SAME event as though you had total responsiblity - not 'blame' but responsibility (whether by your actions - or by how you got yourself in that position in the first place). It's tricker with this when you are dealing with young childhood things, as we are taught to obey parents/adult family members, and innocents are sometimes victimized, but this is a really good thing to do with events that happen in teen and adult years (and many of these things we got ourselves 'into' based on what we were taught as young children).

The first step in breaking the victim cycle is to be AWARE.

Anyway, it sounds to me like your relatives were selfish and clueless at best. You have to make the choice - for yourself - what meaning you place on all this. Then you can use what you know to protect and train the next generation.

Gee - did that sound preachy?? I didn't mean it to!! I have learned a WHOLE lot about God these past few years, and I'm so free and thankful! (and yes - I grew up in church too).

Hope this helps! If you want to talk more - feel free to e-mail me!

Laura

 
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From:  WLTheLuggage  11/18/2004 3:04 pm 
To: justawomern  (3 of 43) 
 966.3 in reply to 966.1 

Wow Laura,

Way to explain... :)

I agree all the way.
I am part of a community of christians. We no longer call it church because of the negative thoughts that usually comes with the name now. Only a few of us are free sexually or otherwise, but we are getting there. Most (if not all) have had a childhood experience like yours.

mine was when i was about 7 or 8, and my step brother gave me oral sex. I realy liked it (to say the least). I orgasmed alot but off course no sperm at such a young age. this happened at a holiday away from home. When i got home i stated mastibating. Like non stop.... :)(ahhh the good old days when i could multiple orgasm)

At this time i never had guilt, but i thought it was wrong because of how i was taught. Brought up a catholic, i became a pentecostal at around the age of 13. That is the time i had a real encounter with God. I gave up mastibation and started again when pubeity hit. The guilt started about this time (13/14 yrs).

I had struggled all my life and ended up with hate in my heart for my step brother. This was all because of church teachings.

Nopw i found out through http://www.libchrist.com/ and a great book, "Divine Sex" (get it at http://www.trafford.com/robots/02-1115.html) that what i thought was wrong and sinful is actually not what the bible says.

Hopefully libchrist is the link you were after. Here are another couple of links that are good:

http://inkaboutit.homestead.com/index6.html
http://www.geocities.com/openlcc/olcc.html

Now i beleive that what happened back when i was 7 yrs is a good thing. This is because i was NOT forced and i chose to participate. There was no damage done to me except that i was taught that it was wrong when it clearly was OK with GOD.

The thing of sin is funny, we are taught that disobeying the law is sinful, but Jesus left us only with the Law of Love, that is Love God and Love others as Yourself. So in order it is God, Yourself then Others...
In our community we have this saying about what is sin " Sin is an attitude, that leads to an action, that is against what God intends for you." Meaning sin is relationship based and anything that destroys any of those Laws (God, You, Others) then it is sin. Sin is not a thing, it is a destroyer of relationships. The easiest one to destroy is the relationship with yourself.

I'm sure the personal development of the people clanmom resently went to would say much the same thing, just in a different way. The book I'm OK, Your OK is great reading, and i've done an excellent personal development course called "born rich".

Sorry if i've sounded preachy, didn't really mean it, I'm just passionate with my beliefs now... :)

God Bless you real good,
And you too Laura

Mat

PS. Divine Sex is the best source on biblical truths and so easy to read. Extremely recommended...

 
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From:  justawomern  11/19/2004 2:41 am 
To: Clanmom  (4 of 43) 
 966.4 in reply to 966.2 

Hi!

Well, the last couple of days has been very enlightening to me! I've done some more reading on a couple of sites I found.

I think I remember reading some of this before, but was still in bondage to religion, so I couldn't really 'allow' myself to 'explore' anything outside the lines of 'christianity'.

This is all so amazing to me! To actually think that it's really 'okay' (not only 'okay', but desirable) to relish in my sexuality.

It's funny (not funny....actually quite pathetic) how you can 'know' something deep down inside, but in order to be accepted among your peers (christians) you don't dare breathe a word of what you 'really' think and feel.

The question about whether or not I was forced in my childhood, that's really hard to answer. They were all older than me, but some not my much. I always felt I had to do what anyone older than me told me to do, whether or not I 'agreed' to it.

Not only that, but when I grew up and started hearing others talk about this (usually talk shows) and how devestating it was to them, and how they were coerced, etc., well, I thought I had better feel the same way, or else that would make me really weird.

My counseling experiences, of course, reinforced the idea that this all was really traumatic, and that I was in denial if I didn't 'see' that.

I'm beginning to look at things through different eyes now. I actually didn't feel bad about any of it. Until I learned that I was 'in denial' and had to 'get in touch with my rage' over it all. You can convince yourself of anything in order to 'fit in', or to please the people who are trying to 'help' you.

I think all this repression is what screws people up so much! Because you have to actually DENY what is REAL, and EMBRACE what is not!

Thanks for all your input! It sounds like you have a very healthy attitude in raising your children. That's really wonderful! That means more people growing up FREELY instead of in religeous BONDAGE.

Thanks again for your advice and encouragement!

 
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From:  justawomern  11/19/2004 3:06 am 
To: WLTheLuggage  (5 of 43) 
 966.5 in reply to 966.3 

Hi!

I know what you mean about the word 'church'. It has a hallow ring to it, doesn't it? At least it does to me. I've thought about going to church again in recent years, but I just can't bring myself to do it. I long for the fellowship, but the legalism ruins it, if you know what I mean.

I have a young son, and I'm always worried that I'm going to screw him up with the same repressions I grew up with. It's hard to be 'free' in this society. There is such rampant judgment, and like it or not, these repressive ideas have become a part of me, deeply #### in me. And although the thought of sexual freedom feels good, there is still always fear of being judged and condemned for my thoughts and feelings.

It's like there's a war of sorts inside of me.

I think the hardest thing for me is that besides the experiences of my childhood, I've had some really bad experiences as an adult which cause a lot of confusion about what is 'good' and what is 'bad'. What happened to me as an adult was definately criminal and traumatic, and I think what I did was just sort of lump all of my experiences together as 'bad'.

I've experienced a lot of healing through years and years of counseling, prayer, and seeking healing. I'm just one of those people who doesn't know how to lay down and play dead, even if I did feel dead. I've always sought after truth and healing, and have always been willing to 'consider' just about anything to aid in that healing process.

Yes, libchrist was the correct site I was looking for! I'll also check out the other ones you offered.

The book, 'Divine Sex' sounds wonderful! I'll have to look that up!

Thanks a lot for your feedback! I'm just so darn excited about all this, but at the same time, a little 'leary'. If I'm anything, I'm cautious. Brave, but cautious.

Thanks again! I'm going to go look up those links now. Will get back to you asap. Asap is sometimes minutes, sometimes hours, sometimes days....;o)

 
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From:  Clanmom  11/19/2004 3:09 am 
To: justawomern  (6 of 43) 
 966.6 in reply to 966.4 

Thanks! (to both of y'all)!

I don't remember if I included this site: www.emofree.com

There's a free e-book - about 87 pages long - but you only need to read pages 20-28 (but after you do it - just ONCE - you'll likely want to read more!).

It's like accupressure for emotions, and will help you clear - instantly - any negative emotions (their test group was Viet Nam vets who had been living with war memories for over 30 years, and in some 15 minutes they were healed! The didn't FORGET the memories, but the trauma was gone!!

Sounds like you too are on a road to healing!

Divine Sex has been mentioned, but I also found a lot of freedom in another of the author's book about sex, "God is not a Homophobe"

I'm not homosexual, but it helped me understand the nitty gritty of what God actually says, and (for me) the "religious" people in my life were actually abusive and neglectful - certainly not what God wants in our lives!

The author is a GREAT human being, and, btw - also wrote another book - less sex oriented - called "The Royal Law of Liberty"

GOOD ON YOU!! I'm very proud of you!

Laura

 
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From:  Lionheart16  DelphiPlusMember Icon 11/21/2004 5:33 am 
To: justawomern  (7 of 43) 
 966.7 in reply to 966.1 

<<My first question is in regards to child molestation. I was molested as a child. By a lot of red-neck 'christians'. Most of whom were my family members.  I really didn't think it was so 'wrong' until later in life when I was in therapy and was pretty much told how 'wrong' it all was.  So, is it 'wrong'?>>

***********************

Justawomern,

Great question, and thanks for sharing!

It depends on what you mean by "wrong."  All values are, by definition, subjective.  "Right" and "wrong" are social constructs.  If society condemns something as "wrong," then it is, by definition, wrong.  But does it mean that it has to hurt you?  Defnitely not.  It doesn't hurt you unless you buy in to that value system too.

It is like masturbation.  If a child masturbates and an adult yells at her and say that it is wrong, then she learns that it is "wrong."  Again, right and wrong are social constructs.  But if the child is born into a culture which accepts masturbation as wholesome, then everything would be fine. 

This is a great topic.  Could you post it in my Alternatives forum too?

Regards,

Ken, the Lionhearted

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From:  justawomern  11/22/2004 11:55 am 
To: Lionheart16  DelphiPlusMember Icon  (8 of 43) 
 966.8 in reply to 966.7 

Hi Ken,

This subject has been very interesting to me ever since I ran across something online that sparked a new interest, but this time around, I'm seeing things from a different point of view.

I'm beginning to understand that my victimization was actually from those who were supposed to be 'helping' me 'heal', and from a society that can't seem to distinguish true victimization from that which is natural and healthy.

I started to become very angry after realizing the depth of damage done to me by a society that turned me into a victim.

But I can't remain angry. Society is what it is, and being angry over what is unchangeable would just cloud the issues and make it harder for me to truly heal.

Looking at all of this from a new perspective has been liberating me in ways I never dreamed possible. And I don't want anger to be a stumbling block in realizing that freedom. I just want to continue on this path of understanding, reap the benefits for myself, and just tell the truth, so that the telling will maybe bring some freedom to others.

 
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From:  Lionheart16  DelphiPlusMember Icon 11/22/2004 3:00 pm 
To: justawomern  (9 of 43) 
 966.9 in reply to 966.8 

Justawomern,

I think you are on a wonderful healing path. :)

I am a Zen teacher.  I recently gave a course called "The Zen Art of Happiness."  In that course, I shared with my students an episode from the movie "8 1/2," a Felini film.  It is the story of a group of children around age 8, having a picnic at the beach.  Their guardian is a Catholic priest.  The priest left the children alone for a while, since he had to get something else.  A prostitute came along.  The children, not having seen a prostitute before, were very curious.  They asked what a prostitute does for a living.  The prostitute said that a prostitute is someone who pleases her customer for money.  So, the children passed around a hat, collecting money from everyone and offered it to the prostitute.  The prostitute then took off her clothes and danced.  The children were so happy.  They clapped their hands and danced along.  They were having such fun, until the priest came back.  He yelled at the woman, "Go away, you are corrupting my children!"

Right at that moment, the notions of "sin", shame and guilt have entered the young minds.  Let me also relate to you this Zen mondo(question and answer):

Student: Master, doesn't the sutra say that everything is just like a dream?  If so, why should we practice?

Master: That's right.  No need to practice anything.  Just don't defile.

Student: What is a defilement?

Master: You are already defiling!

I hope this helps.  Again, can you please post what you wrote in my Alternatives for Humanity forum?  I think it can be enlightening. ;)

 

Best regards,

Ken, the Lionhearted

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From:  justawomern  11/22/2004 3:07 pm 
To: Lionheart16  DelphiPlusMember Icon  (10 of 43) 
 966.10 in reply to 966.9 

Hi Ken,

I did make a post in the Alternatives. A little more elaborate than this one ;o)

[[[Right at that moment, the notions of "sin", shame and guilt have entered the young minds.]]]

I wonder how often we spread guilt and shame around without even realizing it? I can only pray that God will open my eyes further, and cause me to see things more clearly.

 
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From:  justawomern  11/22/2004 3:11 pm 
To: Lionheart16  DelphiPlusMember Icon  (11 of 43) 
 966.11 in reply to 966.10 

P.S. I just went over there (to Alternatives) and the post wasn't there.

I thought maybe the forum was being moderated. But if you are the host, I guess you would know that ;o)

I can't write it all out again right now. Will try again later ;o)

 
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From:  Lionheart16  DelphiPlusMember Icon 11/22/2004 4:48 pm 
To: justawomern  (12 of 43) 
 966.12 in reply to 966.11 

Justawomern,

Yes, the folder on sexuality is moderated.  But I went to the controls and saw nothing.  Just to be safe, please send a copy of what you wrote to my e-mail address: Lionhart06@aol.com.  I would hate to see that it gets lost again.  Delphi is known to be unreliable.

Best regards,

Ken, the Lionhearted

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From:  nplplz  12/11/2004 2:11 pm 
To: justawomern  (13 of 43) 
 966.13 in reply to 966.1 

Yes

Child molestation i beleive is very wrong

I base this on the high high percentage of clients I have in prison that were molested as a child.

nplplz

 
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From:  nplplz  12/11/2004 2:22 pm 
To: justawomern  (14 of 43) 
 966.14 in reply to 966.11 

hi

It has been very interesting to follow your prograsssion in thought and self acceptance. I am curious as to what it means to you to have the freedom to relsih in your sexuality?

nplplz2002@yahoo.com

 
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From:  Lionheart16  DelphiPlusMember Icon 12/11/2004 2:22 pm 
To: nplplz  (15 of 43) 
 966.15 in reply to 966.13 

<<Child molestation i beleive is very wrong  I base this on the high high percentage of clients I have in prison that were molested as a child.>>

**********************

That's interesting.  Using that line of argument, it seems that masturbation is very wrong too.  If you conduct a survey of the prison population, you'll find many who masturbate! ;)

Ken, the Lionhearted

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From:  readercat  DelphiPlusMember Icon 12/11/2004 5:51 pm 
To: Lionheart16  DelphiPlusMember Icon  (16 of 43) 
 966.16 in reply to 966.15 

Well, we could also say that we'd find a large proportion of men who sneeze...Or maybe men who drive trucks...

People who work in mental health and criminal situations try to figure out some possible correlation between the crime and an out of the norm, traumatic experience. The object is to find a possible cause of the criminal behavior. You mention a solo act, mostly reflexive and pleasurable. It is not something forced by one individual upon another. (Similar to sneezing) Nplplz mentions an act that violates the rights of another individual. The question is, is this behavior learned or acted-out later in life by violating the rights of another individual? a whole different question.

Readercat



Edited 12/11/2004 1:40 pm ET by readercat
 
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From:  Lionheart16  DelphiPlusMember Icon 12/11/2004 6:23 pm 
To: readercat  DelphiPlusMember Icon  (17 of 43) 
 966.17 in reply to 966.16 

The main point is that a correlation should not be confused with causation.  Many people commit that fallacy.

Ken, the Lionhearted

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From:  readercat  DelphiPlusMember Icon 12/11/2004 6:41 pm 
To: Lionheart16  DelphiPlusMember Icon  (18 of 43) 
 966.18 in reply to 966.17 

yes, that's the point...but in the case of behaviors that hurt others, the goal IS to look for possible correlation

Readercat

 
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From:  readercat  DelphiPlusMember Icon 12/11/2004 6:42 pm 
To: Lionheart16  DelphiPlusMember Icon  (19 of 43) 
 966.19 in reply to 966.17 

Also the proposed comparison of masturbation is also a fallacy, namely, a false analogy.

Readercat

 
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 Introduce Yourself -  Someone with some honest questions   
 
From:  Lionheart16  DelphiPlusMember Icon 12/12/2004 2:37 am 
To: readercat  DelphiPlusMember Icon  (21 of 43) 
 966.21 in reply to 966.19 

<<Also the proposed comparison of masturbation is also a fallacy, namely, a false analogy.>>

*******************

No false analogy here.  In both cases, one is confusing a correlation with causation.  Now, THAT is a fallacy! LOL

Ken, the Lionhearted

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From:  nplplz  12/13/2004 1:26 pm 
To: Lionheart16  DelphiPlusMember Icon  (22 of 43) 
 966.22 in reply to 966.20 

Let us hear from those that have had sexual intimacy as a child. Was it a possitive expereince for you?

I agreet their is a difference between molestation and loving intimacy between an adult and a child

When I marreid my wife her boys were 12 and I was quite amazed at the level of intimacy betweent them

they are now adults

I would really like to hear from those out there who were on the recieving end as a child

nplplz

 
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From:  justawomern  12/16/2004 11:05 am 
To: nplplz  (23 of 43) 
 966.23 in reply to 966.13 

Hi nplplz,

It's been awhile since I've been in here, so I'm assuming I haven't answered this post yet. If so, then here's a second one ;o)

In my original post about this, I was of the belief that I WAS molested as a child.

I agree with you that child molestation is wrong. If there is coercion and force, with no thought of the child, and the child has no benefit from the experience, or any feeling of control, then it is definately wrong.

I think what I was actually asking in the first post is "was I really molested"?

I've come to believe differently than I did before about what happened to me. When I look back on some of those experiences, (not ALL, because SOME actually WERE molestation) I am not ashamed, embarrassed, or feeling any guilt or feelings of having been under someone else's control.

So I can't say that I was actually 'molested' in THOSE instances. Because I DID benefit from it, wanted it, enjoyed it, etc.

Does that answer your question?

 
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From:  justawomern  12/16/2004 11:27 am 
To: nplplz  (24 of 43) 
 966.24 in reply to 966.14 

I can now relish in my sexuality because I have gotten rid of a LOT of fear, guilt, and shame related to many instances of sexual encounters in my childhood....

I no longer link them together with the 'bad' experiences. I have much more harmony in my sexuality.

As far as those 'bad' experiences, they can be filed in my mental folder under the heading of 'boo-boo's', instead of 'trauma'....

I was never hurt physically, and I liken those experiences to a bad lay. That I can overcome.

Relishing in my sexuality has taken a lot of forms that give me pleasure, desire, fulfillment in my whole person, who is a sexual being.

I enjoy many more things in life that I could not enjoy before....

A lot of my 'pleasure centers' were 'locked up' with all that other 'garbage' where it didn't belong....

Everything about me is part of my sexuality. It's not compartmentalized. I'm much more integrated as a human being....

I enjoy things in life I could not enjoy before. Soft music, 'dressing up' (which I couldn't do before because it would draw attention to my body) and so much more....

I enjoy sensual feelings as never before. I actually enjoy eating, while before, it was only 'fuel'. I enjoy touching a delicate rose and delighting in it's scent, it's feel, it's beauty.

A whole new world has opened up to me.

I love the touch and feel of silk, and other fabrics which tickle my sensuality. I love the touch and feel of leather. I love all the textures and tactile sensations that were not 'available' to me before....

In short, I am a sexual, sensual being. All of me. I don't have peices of me locked up in a box. If I lock up the thorns, the roses have to go there too. And THAT would be bad.

I am becoming much more free in my art. My art is not 'sexual', but it is an expression of my sexuality as much as it is an expression of my spirituality, my sensuality, my delight in being alive and truly in touch with all that is.

 
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From:  nplplz  12/16/2004 1:30 pm 
To: justawomern  (25 of 43) 
 966.25 in reply to 966.24 

thank you for your response

it is so wonderful to see the healing that God has brought into your life. I find that people get locked up for many different reasons and shame is certainly one of those.

Whenever one of God's children find freedom I think the angels in heaven are rejoicing.

I do have a question i would really like to talk with you about but would rather not do it on the board as I find many this can be a shaming place and I myself have found freedom from shame but need to keep working at it

if you would like new friend my email is

nplplz2002@yahoo.com

 
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From:  Lionheart16  DelphiPlusMember Icon 12/26/2004 5:22 am 
To: nplplz  (26 of 43) 
 966.26 in reply to 966.22 

>>Let us hear from those that have had sexual intimacy as a child. Was it a possitive expereince for you?

I was once molested by my cousin.  It wasn't a positive experience for me.  But that is because I didn't want the sexual advance.  If I wanted it myself, then it would probably be a much different story.  However, the experience did not damage me.  Its impact on me was minimal.  The point I want to make is that we can't call all such experience negative.  It depends on whether there is any mutual desire.

 
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From:  Lionheart16  DelphiPlusMember Icon 12/26/2004 5:26 am 
To: justawomern unread  (27 of 43) 
 966.27 in reply to 966.23 

<<So I can't say that I was actually 'molested' in THOSE instances. Because I DID benefit from it, wanted it, enjoyed it, etc.>>

*******************

Yes, it makes a big difference whether you enjoyed or wanted it.  The common characterization that all such activities are unwanted and not enjoyable is simply not true.  It is a stereotype made to suit a certain political agenda.

 
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From:  Lionheart16  DelphiPlusMember Icon 12/26/2004 5:29 am 
To: justawomern unread  (28 of 43) 
 966.28 in reply to 966.1 

<<My first question is in regards to child molestation. I was molested as a child. By a lot of red-neck 'christians'. Most of whom were my family members.>>

******************

Interestingly, most of the abusive sex happens in traditional and "conservative" Christian families.  This is so because of the power structure of patriarchy.  Children and women just have to go along.

 
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From:  Lionheart16  DelphiPlusMember Icon 12/26/2004 2:37 pm 
To: Clanmom  (29 of 43) 
 966.29 in reply to 966.2 

Laura,

This is a wonderful post.  Can you cut-and-paste it in my Alternatives forum?  I think many people can benefit from reading it.

Regards,

 

 
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From:  Lionheart16  DelphiPlusMember Icon 12/26/2004 2:42 pm 
To: Clanmom  (30 of 43) 
 966.30 in reply to 966.2 

<<I have been through 30 years of counseling (off and on), mostly with Christian counselors. A few weeks ago I went to a Klemmer & Associates conference (www.klemmer.com), and ALL of this finally made sense (and I realized that some of the counselors screwed me up WORSE rather than helped me).>>

******************

Laura,

I visited the Klemmer website.  It seems that is an organization for corporate training.  I don't see anything posted which deals with what we are talking about.  Can you help?

Regards,

 
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From:  Lionheart16  DelphiPlusMember Icon 12/26/2004 3:17 pm 
To: Clanmom  (31 of 43) 
 966.31 in reply to 966.2 

<<Basically, what happens in our lives is that something happens. . . it just "is." Then we attach (or in the case of parents or counselors, they attach) meaning to this event - the even now is assigned a significance. FROM THAT MEANING, we then decide something about OURSELVES - we assume a VALUE about ourselves - not based on the EVENT - but based on the MEANING placed on that event.

Now we can CHOOSE - as adults - to re-evaluate that event - to look at that event fresh, new, from "the outside" and re-evaluate the VALUE of ourselves from a NEW meaning attached to that event. Changing the meaning gives empowerment.>>

************************

Well said!  We should be mindful of the labeling of experience as "good," "bad," etc., especially if the labeling is a result of society's opinion.  Why should we let someone else tell us how we should feel about a certain event?

It is wonderful to live life just as it is.  Each experience is unique and absolute.  And each is an important lesson and an adventure of the soul.

 
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From:  Lionheart16  DelphiPlusMember Icon 12/26/2004 3:27 pm 
To: WLTheLuggage  (32 of 43) 
 966.32 in reply to 966.3 

<<Now i beleive that what happened back when i was 7 yrs is a good thing. This is because i was NOT forced and i chose to participate. There was no damage done to me except that i was taught that it was wrong when it clearly was OK with GOD.>>

*******************

Thank you for sharing.  Yes, the critical factor is whether there is use of force.

 
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From:  Lionheart16  DelphiPlusMember Icon 12/26/2004 3:55 pm 
To: justawomern unread  (33 of 43) 
 966.33 in reply to 966.4 

<<The question about whether or not I was forced in my childhood, that's really hard to answer. They were all older than me, but some not my much. I always felt I had to do what anyone older than me told me to do, whether or not I 'agreed' to it.  Not only that, but when I grew up and started hearing others talk about this (usually talk shows) and how devestating it was to them, and how they were coerced, etc., well, I thought I had better feel the same way, or else that would make me really weird.>>

**********************

In my opinion, you were being coerced in two ways:

1. Since you felt that you had no choice but to engage in sexual activities with your elders in the family, that was coercion even if they didn't mean to coerce.  However, this doesn't mean that you have to take the experience negatively.

2. Society is definitely coercing you to accept the popular view that any sexual activity between adults and children is damaging and can ruin a child's life.  If you don't accept their view, they will label you as being so "damaged" that you don't even know "right" from "wrong."

My point is we should forget about labeling our past experience.  What is past is past.  For our own happiness, we can embrace everything and view all experience as divine and a learning opportunity.

Hope this helps.

 
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From:  Lionheart16  DelphiPlusMember Icon 12/26/2004 4:06 pm 
To: justawomern unread  (34 of 43) 
 966.34 in reply to 966.10 

<<I wonder how often we spread guilt and shame around without even realizing it? I can only pray that God will open my eyes further, and cause me to see things more clearly.>>

*******************

That's exactly it!  Very often, we do hurtful things because we are not fully aware human beings.  Mindfulness is critical for a wholesome life and a wholesome society.  But it is a pity if we have to rely on God to make us aware.  There is an entire system of mindfulness training in Buddhism.  I encourage you to explore it. :)

 
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From:  Clanmom  12/29/2004 11:25 pm 
To: Lionheart16  DelphiPlusMember Icon  (35 of 43) 
 966.35 in reply to 966.29 

You are welcome to cut and paste it yourself - I don't really have the time.
 
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From:  Clanmom  12/29/2004 11:28 pm 
To: Lionheart16  DelphiPlusMember Icon  (36 of 43) 
 966.36 in reply to 966.30 

It was the Personal Mastery Course. In a nutshell - his book is entitled something like "If how-to's were enough, we'd all be skinny, rich and happy!"

The most important part for all this was two things for me:

1) that I attached the meaning that the church and counselors TOLD me to, to these various (and yes, traumatic) events, and

2) What the church taught me was God all lined up under the description of "victim." That was a real eye-opener for me!

Hope this helps. Otherwise, please e-mail me.

 
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From:  Lionheart16  DelphiPlusMember Icon 12/30/2004 1:47 am 
To: Clanmom  (37 of 43) 
 966.37 in reply to 966.36 

Thank you. :)
 
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From:  bronzemouse8  2/20/2005 10:46 pm 
To: nplplz  (38 of 43) 
 966.38 in reply to 966.13 

Child molistation is clearly wrong. In the flight of the Jew and the establishment of a home the Lord had them take the land of the Canaanites. These people believed in using their children in all sorts of rituals. One was fornication. So said I am sure this is why God had his people destroy Canaanites. We do not need this lifestyle to enter our world again.
 
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From:  SussedGuy  3/15/2005 11:45 am 
To: ALL  (39 of 43) 
 966.39 in reply to 966.38 

I agree - I am all for bringing Christians and others to full sexual liberation - but it is an evil to even suggest anything involving children. (I am not talking about honest exploration of teenagers with their PEERS.) The notion that we have repressed children when what we mean is we want to get our hands on them for our gratification has to be opposed at every turn. Jesus had very strong words to say about that - about millstones round necks and throwing into the sea.

As someone who totally oposes the death penalty I note that this is the only time Jesus implies support of it - in relation to abuse of children. Enough said.

 
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From:  Susan / Edward (bq301)  3/22/2005 12:21 pm 
To: Lionheart16  DelphiPlusMember Icon  (40 of 43) 
 966.40 in reply to 966.20 

How can we determine what is right and wrong? We as Christians believe there are three guides: The Bible, counsel from Godly people and the inner nudgings of God's Holy Spirit. Since society at large cannot be (and usually refuses to be) led by these criteria, laws are formulated, agreed upon and enforced. These are based upon cultural norms and mores. You can read more about this in the Bible book of Romans.

For fellow believers we would add two other criteria: A. Read the Bible yourself to make certain the Bible is REALLY saying what people assert it is saying. B. Remember the Law of Love. Certain actions may be lawful for us as Christians, but we should not use our freedom as license. There are different levels of spiritual maturity. One does not force feed meat to a baby on milk.

Edward and Susan

 
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Introduce Yourself -  Someone with some honest questions   
 
From:  kenrdaven  3/28/2005 8:05 am 
To: Lionheart16  DelphiPlusMember Icon  (41 of 43) 
 966.41 in reply to 966.20 

The bottom line is CONSENT. Whether or not the contact was harmful or not due to introduction of the idea of sin, or shame is irrelevant. Children are on a different and much more innocent emotional level than adults, and they are incapable of understanding the feelings of the adult and thereby making informed consent to the sex.

Children engaging in sex play is a totally different story. Because our media brings to childrens eyes adult sex play at an awfully early age, its quite possible two children may engage in something like fellatio but be totally innocent, and how you deal with it may cause far more hurt than their play. But normally childrens sex play is about curiousity, and they wouldnt have the knowledge to engage in actual sex acts unless they were molested or exposed to sexuality of an adult source. Which is why as a Liberated adult I still very much object to the level sexuality in media.

For those of you who were introduced to sex as a child by an adult, molested, that adult commited a grave sin. God gives us a tremendous gift and responsibility in our children, you dont risk just ruining their lives by harming instead of nuturing, you risk their spiritual health as well. My greatest fear in life isnt that my child is hurt, or killed, its that he not be saved.

Finally, being liberated doesnt mean we are free to just go out and have sex wantonly. If you hurt, use , lie or just satisfy your own desires with another person or persons, thats lustful self serving and sinful. Being Liberated enables us to pursue sexual activities outside the norm, but it still needs to be loving, honest and fullfilling for everyone envolved. An adult who uses a child for sex is sinfully satisfying his own lusts at the expense of anothers well being.

When in doubt, you do have access to a higher authority than scripture or any earthly source, prayer. But you have to be willing to accept even answers you dont like. Not everyone has the temperment to survive open sexuality without sin, just as some can drink alcohol and others risk alcoholism, same for gambling, drugs, etc. And sexuality is the most powerful of these. Its hard to pray for permission or guidance about sin vs OK when your body is desiring the OK answer above all others. I have accepted that for my wife and I, she makes all the "YES" calls because I am much more likely to let my penis lead, not my heart and head.
While this and similar sites have been great for me, I worry that some people who shed the burden of unjust guilt do so at the risk of a leaving a repressed, but saved life for a unburdened, but lustfully sinful life... Be careful...

 
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From:  onlyabrat  3/29/2005 8:27 am 
To: justawomern unread  (42 of 43) 
 966.42 in reply to 966.1 

Hi, I'm new to this board, but it seems that a lot of what I went to school for and came to realize through my searching and questioning is plastered all over the net.
To your question, I like you have been molested by brother, and family the typical "anglo-protestant-american" family. I hated the two faced attitude or judgements that went on...and the deceit. I am a positive person (not by upbringing), because I found my OWN path. I didn't take "christians" at face value or anything else people threw at me and TOLD me to believe. What happened to you WAS WRONG, but the bigger picture is if you can heal, forgive, and tell those you forgave why. The answer for when they ask you why you forgive them is, "because you wouldn't be who you are today". It may sound stupid or weird, but consider this? I was shy, introverted, abused, never allowed freedom, nor an opinion. Now I am well versed in cultural History/anthropology/psych up to a master's. I love the quest for knowledge. I'm a mother of 5 and been a gypsy for most of my adult life, but I dress in whatever (hot topic gear, etc), I'm outragous and outgoing. I have a good sense of humor, and friendly to everyone. I'm even starting a business, if I had let the burdens of what others told me or what sins were enacted on me, I would not be who I am. That doesn't make what those people did to you any less sinful, it just takes the power away from the sin/sinner.
I hope this helps in some small way?
Sincerest wishes, T
 
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From:  Queridinhozinho (queridinho1)   Jun-14 12:15 am 
To: kenrdaven unread  (43 of 43) 
 966.43 in reply to 966.41 

Please to see:

 
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