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Sexuality Discussion -  Carol and the Children of God   
From:  eubiotist  2/26/2004 10:06 pm 
To: ALL  (1 of 12) 

I sometimes read erotic stories on the Internet. There's a Usenet newsgroup called "" in which you can read such stories. This newsgroup maintains an archive which is searchable at the website <>.

In browsing this newsgroup, I came across a series of brilliant essays by someone who calls herself "Carol". I can't vouch for the authenticity of Carol or these essays, but they seem to me to have the aura of authenticity. I recommend them to you.

Carol says that her mother was a member of the "Children of God" (COG) Christian (or pseudo-Christian) sect many years ago, but split from the sect when it became apparent to her that there was some intergenerational sex going on involving its founder, Moses David, and children of members.

The sect was also notorious for a while for its practice of "flirty fishing", their own term for the practice, which involved female members witnessing for Christ to men whom they seduced.

Carol reports that she herself was conceived when her mother was flirty-fishing in Washington DC. But many of the teachings on sexual morality taught by the COG still made sense to Carol's mother and to other people who dropped out of the COG at about the same time that she did;

and these "dropouts" got together in communal houses and continued to practice those teachings that made sense to them.

Within the communal dwellings nudity was customary, except when "outside" visitors were present; and there was complete sexual freedom, except that intergenerational sex was rigidly prohibited.

Adults made no attempt to hide their sexual activity from children,and in fact sometimes gave "defloration parties" for girls who had attained puberty, at which the defloration was carried out by males who had also just attained puberty—a rite of passage for both the girls and the boys.

Parents were present at these parties, and encouraged and supported their son or daughter through the experience.

There were also occasional dances for the teenagers (nude, of course) at which boys and girls would eventually pair off to make love.

There was never any attempt at sexual privacy within the household. Most of the sexual activity among the teenagers consisted of oral sex, and the girls seemed to be very much the initiators and leaders in this activity.

Pre-pubescent kids freely witnessed sexual activity between adults and between teenagers, and experimented freely among themselves, but seemed not to really take much interest in sex until puberty. It was customary for older teenagers to mentor younger teenagers in sexual matters.

Carol's essays constitute a memoir of her experiences growing up in this totally pro-sexual environment. She has a lot to say—none of it complimentary—about contemporary antisexual paranoia in the good old USA. I highly recommend her essays.

To access the essays, do the following:

1. Go to the website <>. That's their search-engine.
2. Under "Query", enter "cobillard" (no quotes).
3. Under "Search", choose the second option, "All of ASSTR/ search beginning of file (title search)".
4. Scroll down and click on the "Search" button.

That will give you a set of links to her essays, in the order that she posted them.

The COG has reorganized as "The Family". It has given up many of the more radical practices initiated by Moses David, and has branches all over the world. For information about the Family as it exists today , go to the website <>.

I'd be interested in your comments—preferably after you've accessed both websites.

Love to all,

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From:  Darrell Ray (SoaringEagl2)  2/27/2004 4:49 pm 
To: eubiotist  (2 of 12) 
 806.2 in reply to 806.1 

We as a church and ministry, we would be very open to starting a group similar as long as we stayed true to Scripture. In a way, I guess we have already started down this path.
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From:  soarhevn  2/27/2004 9:31 pm 
To: eubiotist  (3 of 12) 
 806.3 in reply to 806.1 

I visited a "The Family" home here in Portland. There was about 12 people, most of whom were living in the house in a communal environment, and about 6 or 7 kids. Most everyone was under 40, with quite a few in their 20's. Everyone greeted me warmly, which is more than I can say for most traditional churches.

The small service started, and their singing and guitar playing was really really good; which was inspiring to me. One of the women also got up several times and took a tambourine and danced a bit during the singing, very beautiful.

After good period of singing, the leader, Patrick, who was originally from France, has a short lesson. In it he talked a lot about not being judgmental, and also touched on sex (pre-marital) not being a sin. One of the women (in her early 20's) spoke up and told how she had previously been looked down on at another church she went to because she was a single mother. More singing at the end, then Patrick asked me to stay and eat with them.

I talked to Patrick a while about their thinking, etc. Seems like they tend to reach out to young singles mostly (and nothing wrong with that). They for the most part will resist taking jobs outside, preferring to work on some small home biz set up in the commune and on donations of goods, food, etc. There is a clear delineation as he told me between a full member who lives in the house and is full time (no job) and those who live outside and participate in the activities/services. Seems they really focus on giving up everything in order to get the highest membership; he referred to the people not living there as not yet having fully committed to God, that they were working on making a bigger commitment.

At lunch I talked more with some of the members, who were all very warm, giving. And talked with the single mother who danced. BTW, she also in the middle of the sermon, started breast-feeding (she sat right next to me on the couch). I liked that this was so natural, as it should be.

Overall, I liked the atmosphere, the friendliness, the openness about sex (at least for what I could tell). I didn't feel great about the two level structure about having to join the commune in order to be a full member. I'm thinking that I might not care anyway, and go ahead back, as long as they don't pressure you to make it to their definition of the full membership. They did use the Bible well in the sermons, and the singing and praise was truly great.

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From:  JAYJORDA1  2/28/2004 5:20 am 
To: soarhevn  (4 of 12) 
 806.4 in reply to 806.3 

Twenty years ago, Brock I was in the Family with my wife an five kids, so what you have said here is true and very similar to their style back then. We however were ex-communicated for reporting to their heirarchy the horrrendous sins of their local hierarchy, which wasn;t that rational as it was pretty rampant through out their homes world wide.

So since then they have gotten away from a lot of their sexual sins of the past, but its hard to tell because they are so paranoid and tight lipped. There are definitely some good people within, but after years the fears and super restrictions on thinking and even sexuality are a terrible burden, and actually stunts their spiritual growth. They have not progressed spiritually in decades. I know because I have tried writing them via the internet, and they literally have no opinion about anything except that they are still the greatest Christians in the world despite their horrenedous Fall into almost total oblivion.

Sexually now they have less freedom than us on the outside. They are strictly not allowed to have sex with outsiders (but I'm sure they still do, if the men fished have sufficient money) Ha, this being their old sin, where they made love for money, power and psotioning within the group and did not take care of the results of lovemaking meaning children. And in many cases would cast out new mothers, for different reasons and yet they had made them pregnant.

Anyway, the Family screwed up literally thousands of their own children with the way they raised them, so much so that these abused kids are now speaking up and thinking of suing the group. I disagree, as the Lord is a much better judge than the system ever could be, but the pain their doctrine caused has been horrendous. But their new leader (Marie) denies it, although she was complicit in making the erroreous part of the doctrine that hurt so many.

Much of it, I think from eprsonal experience steemmed from children being nonchalant around lovemaking adults and the adult - teen unions.

It's a long story, and the choice is yours, and yet many of them are true christians and some in foreign fields are true missionaries and do know the Lord, but watch out for their leaders, they definitely wear sheep skin cloaks but underneath they are anything but sheep. Power corrupts and they have been corrupted, if not, they would have been cast out long ago...

The group is a total mess, but still are running on vapours and the past...and even the pretense of shows...parties, singing. But talk to them person to person with real questions and they are totally evasive and unthinking. I hate to say it but they are a cult, not because they are small but because they have to belief what has been told them. They are robotic rather than lively and free. Pity.

In My opinion from direct personal experiences


PS) Strangely I was going to post three of them, in three diofferent places, about our new Spiritual Sharing Sensual Christians website
( ) for their comments.

But in truth only one of them can write more than two sentences and with more than just cliches. But I try to keep in contact as there are some Christains within, and after all these years of so called having sex with the Lord via group sessions, they should have learned something. But I personnaly doubt it. Yet if they respond, I shall get back to you, on what they have said....

God bless Brock, and E the opriginater of this thread..


One life will soon be past
Only what's done for jesus will last..

Edited 2/28/2004 12:25:22 AM ET by JAYJORDA1
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From:  soarhevn  2/28/2004 5:51 am 
To: JAYJORDA1  (5 of 12) 
 806.5 in reply to 806.4 

Thanks for your inside story. I have read a lot of the history and how messed up things have been for them; thus my thinking to maybe just attend some of the services without getting to deep into their group. And certainly I have no desire to become a true member in their definition.

I think this goes to show that we are really in need of a new movement. Fresh and without the baggage of the past. As Jesus said about the wineskins, new wine will burst old wineskins. Kudos again to Darrell who has actually set up a new church practicing what we discuss here in the group. I only wish he would move things up to Portland ;-). Anyway, since I am newly married, I am not in any position to start anything and devote the time requried. Though I would have jumped at the chance to start a campus/singles ministry based on the liberated Christion doctrine when I was single (had I known it then).

My wife and I actually came from the ICOC. I learned many good things there, as well as it having changed my character tremendously, thank GOD! Now though this is falling apart due to giving too much authority to people who should not have had any, and to the greed of the top leaders. A sad sad end to what could have been a great deal more people brought to God. (I'm speaking outside of what now I believe the freedom of sex we have, since of course they do not believe so.) We did get kicked out for having sex before marriage, this was in Hong Kong, and not repenting by seeing each other again (rules of men).

So I don't think "The Family" is the answer, for sure. What Darrell has done south of Salem in his little town in starting a new work. This is the answer; and then to spread this to other towns and cities. Through a campus ministry as in a previous post I had is the best way I still think.

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From:  JAYJORDA1  2/28/2004 5:59 am 
To: ALL  (6 of 12) 
 806.6 in reply to 806.4 

If any are interested here's the Children of God/Family of Love sex website.

IN My Opinion, its really quite good and scripturial and helpful, Dan the musicman who put it together with hierarchy permission, is rather gruff though. He e-mailed me concerning my site first, and then in correspondance I found out he was Family of Love I knew the graphics and posters.

And suggested that he not say they were independant web masters who got together to make the web-site. Absolutely not, he made up the site with maybe a little help from others within the group, and they are anything but independant. I said they should link to the official/P.R. site as at that point they weren;t linked.

But since that time, Dan has linked to them, and yet the offical/P.R. site can not link to this their sex site because they don;t want the public to think they are sexual anymore.

So be it, but its a rather good sexual witnessing site..only a few minor debateable comments in the whole thing IMO..

There it is for what's it worth...



One life will soon be past

Only what's done for jesus will last..

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From:  JAYJORDA1  2/28/2004 6:13 am 
To: soarhevn  (7 of 12) 
 806.7 in reply to 806.5 

Yea, Brock, the Family has baggage, and literally to get rewired it might take some of them up to three years to get straightenned out and normal from all the indocrination. Some people after ten years still haven't made a fresh start. But most of them within are our Christian brethren...... they use to join for power, for music, for sex, for the perks, and so maybe a greater percentage are joining for Jesus now !!

But what's ICOC .. Intervarsity Christians on Campus

And you were in Honk Kong, now that to me must have been a hard mission field. Only been thru there twice at the airport. Tough field I am thinking ...

And you rascals having sex without permission, I mean sex without getting married first ... shame, shame on doing what came naturially and lovingly.

When I arrived in the Philippines, I got my -wife to be- in trouble because we got together without the tyrant shepherds permission. Hello, I was 33 years old and needed permission to make love ????. Ha, we have stayed together since then thru thick and thin whereas he and his wife split up shortly thereafter.

Anyway Brock, I do remember about the campus ministry, do go for it if you have the faith. It is much needed, but my feelings are that the system church would fight it tooth and nail and worse. I think we may have to be more undercover... under the covers.

All the best



One life will soon be past

Only what's done for jesus will last..

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From:  soarhevn  2/28/2004 6:50 pm 
To: JAYJORDA1  (8 of 12) 
 806.8 in reply to 806.7 

ICOC = International Church of Christ

Hong Kong was not an easy city to live in for sure. People are very money focused and selfish, not very friendly. (Yes, much worse then in the US, but perhaps more like NY or LA) However, as a mission field, not to bad, as everyone is so unhappy; you can see it each morning and night in the bus and the subway I took. Most work 10 hours a day, 6 days a week. So to provide them the friendship of the brother/sisterhood, and a chance to see life can have meaning beyond another buck, many do and did respond.


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From:  JAYJORDA1  2/28/2004 7:54 pm 
To: soarhevn  (9 of 12) 
 806.9 in reply to 806.8 

Good for you, Brock, the Rock

For by your words you can tell you have a Christian missionary's heart.

God Bless !!

One life will soon be past

Only what's done for jesus will last..

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From:  Queridinhozinho (queridinho1)   Jun-6 10:36 pm 
To: soarhevn  (10 of 12) 
 806.10 in reply to 806.8 

soarhevn says:
ICOC = International Church of Christ

Hong Kong was not an easy city to live in for sure. People are very money focused and selfish, not very friendly. (Yes, much worse then in the US, but perhaps more like NY or LA) However, as a mission field, not to bad, as everyone is so unhappy; you can see it each morning and night in the bus and the subway I took. Most work 10 hours a day, 6 days a week. So to provide them the friendship of the brother/sisterhood, and a chance to see life can have meaning beyond another buck, many do and did respond.


Is ICOC a Liberated Christian church?
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From:  soarhevn  Jun-7 3:48 am 
To: Queridinhozinho (queridinho1)    (11 of 12) 
 806.11 in reply to 806.10 

No ICOC is not a Liberated church; not even close. It is a very conservative fundamentalist group, even being a cult in some places. No premarital sex, masturbation is a sin; if you happen to "sin" by having sex with your girlfriend, they will break you up and forbid you to see each other.
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From:  Queridinhozinho (queridinho1)   Jun-7 3:55 am 
To: soarhevn  (12 of 12) 
 806.12 in reply to 806.11 

Thanks for the alert!
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